All in the Family featured the curmudgeonly Archie Bunker. Archie was television’s most famous grouch, blunt, blustering, straightforward and untouched by the PC crowd. He was the archetype of the conservative male. Michael desprately tried to reeducate him, but he persisted in his breviloquence.

Looking back at the last 40 years, we realize: ARCHIE WAS RIGHT!


Thought Experiment II

A couple of weeks ago I proposed a "thought experiment".  The purpose of which was to offer a proof that: "Adam was restricted to a 3 dimensional reality".  Although it was one of my more commented on posts, nobody took much of a shoot at doing a proof.  C'est la vie. 

I realize that by definition that the only people who know for sure what happened are those that either observed or experienced the event of the fall.  None the less its an interesting topic to speculate on.

  • God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. Gen 1:31
  • The Universe appears to operate biased on physically knowable laws
  • Man is able to search out these laws and explore them theoretically as well as experimentally
  • Scripture records events that transcend normal rules of physics
    • The law of non contradiction requires a method to enact actions that are unexplainable in three dimensional time space
    • Quantum physics provides explanations for phenomena outside of normal time space
    • These explanations are not hostile to a literal understanding of scripture    
  • Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness Gen 1:26
  • The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. Gen 2:25
    • After they eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they realize they are naked
    • It seems odd that they would be "ashamed" of being how they had always been
    • Modern readers bring a cultural prejudice concerning clothing and sexuality to the interpretation of the text, that isn't required by the text itself
  • Exodus 34:29-35 Gives an account of Moses radiantly glowing from being in the presence of the LORD.  Click here for a more scholarly explanation of "shekinah".  I believe that higher beings (humans and above) can reflect shekinah glory and that this is done by emanating light wave lengths that are visible to the human eye.
    • I believe what Adam and Eve called "nakedness" was that after sinning, they lost the radiant emanation of light 
    • "clothing" was a way to cover up that which had always been less noticeable due to God's Glory 
  • The laws of physics have no explanation for:
    • shekinah glowing
    • paranormal observations/experiences, spooky stuff, etc
  • For some reason there is nothing in scripture to indicate that Eve thought it odd that she was speaking to another non-human creature.
  • Angels are identified as:
    • "higher" than us, although this was apparently not a permanent condition
    • ministering servants Heb 1:14
    • creatures we will sit in judgment of 1Cor 6:3
  • God emits light Is 60:19, Da 2:22, I Tim 6:16
I submit to you that in their original sinless state, Adam and Eve had access to some things we do not have today.
  • Perfect bodies
    • perfect design
    • perfect health
    • perfect function and use
    • no death
  • Perfect mental abilities
    • perfect use of language
    • perfect use of intellect
    • perfect reasoning skills
  • Perfect spiritual abilities
    • no sin
    • no shame
    • perfect access to God
      • they could be 100% in the presence of God
      • they had regular conversations with God
    • access to other extra-caporal beings
It seems to me based on the information we have about Moses, and other references to God as the source of literal light that Adam and Eve likely reflected or shone with God's light since they were in daily contact with Him physically.  The issue of the shekinah glory raises more questions than it answers.  No doubt Adam and Eve regarded their "glowing" as normal.  They became ashamed when they no longer had that covering.

I suspect that there was something physically different about their pre-sin bodies that being perfect allowed them unfettered access to the "spiritual" realm.  I suspect that the pre-sin human body was like the resurrection body of Christ.  Which is the same form of body that we are told we will have after this life is over.  That body will allow us to access the dwelling place of God.  I think that's what Adam and Eve had in the first place.

Angelic beings are designed to fulfill a number of purposes.  One of those purposes is to "minster" to righteous men.  In post sin circumstances angels are regarded with fear.  In a pre-sin situation Adam would not have feared anything on the earth as it was all given to him to "rule over".  Is it possible that angles (or some sub group) actually "ministered" at Adam's request or maybe even at his command?  If that was the case, then he'd have to have a way to interact with them.

This is of course all speculation; reasoned speculation, but still just speculation.  Just as you can't prove Adam and Eve were constrained to 4 time space dimensions, you can't prove they were not.  Interestingly there are reasons to speculate that mankind was never meant to only dwell on earth, or be limited by our current physical bodies.  After all God made sure we could never eat of the tree of life in a post sin body.  Maybe that's because only death will free us to take on a new form, or at least go back to the one we were intended to enjoy all along.  You can call it spiritual, or extra dimensional, in the end it may amount to the same thing.


  1. Susan1:00 PM

    Wow. The resident chef concocts another tasty mental feast. LOTS to think about.

    One thought I had was regarding their shame when they ate of the fruit. I agree with your thinking regarding the Godly light. Makes perfect sense when you think about Moses and how he glowed after just seeing God's back.

    Think about your kids when they were little. As toddlers, they could run around totally naked in front of strangers if they were in the mood to.

    It all comes down to knowledge. It isn't until the child gets older and receives a bit more instruction from their parents that they realize that running around naked isn't the thing to do.

    Does this thinking make sense? You don't know its wrong if you have never been told it is. Like toddlers.

  2. Does this thinking make sense?

    It does. One thing that came to mind reading your comment was that "shame" in this area is a learned behavior.

    I think Adam's sin was different than Eve's. There have been several sermons concerning Adam's lack of leadership, Eve's gullibility etc. I don't think that's what happened.

    I think Eve was deceived like it states and that Adam was there when it happened. I don't think they understood what death was. After all how could they? Anyway Eve took a bite. She didn't drop over dead. I think she immediately stopped glowing and lost her "light". Adam wasn't fooled. He saw what happened and what caused it.

    Adam then made a conscience choice. He chose to face whatever Eve was going to face with her. She was his and something horrible had happened to her. He loved her. She had been artfully formed to specifically please him. Adam's heart was full of grief. He wasn't fooled with any nonsense about being like God. He saw his mate degraded. Adam didn't understand death but he wasn't going to let Eve face it alone. He took his bite, and dammed us all.

    Scripture tells us Eve was deceived but Adam made a choice. It would have been impossible for Adam to make a pre-sin choice with anything less than a perfect, righteous even, motive. What was Adam's motive? Love? Loyalty? Compassion? A desire to redeem?

    Eve didn't ask Adam if she should eat to be like God. He probably would have told her no. BUT Adam didn't ask God what to do about Eve's condition. God could have given Adam a different way to help Eve.

    God had already established Adam as chief over this world. Adam (pre-sin)could have picked up a rock and smashed the devils head in. It was in his power to destroy the serpent as long as the serpent was on the earth. Any course of action Adam would have take to deal with the situation (except the one thing he was forbidden to do) would have been moral and acceptable in God's sight and permitted.

    I believe God would have given/shown Adam a way to redeem Eve had Adam not sinned.

  3. I think my experience that you read on my post of "Wide Awake NDE" is how they were and how we will be after we escape the limitations placed on us after the "Fall". And it is wonderfully unique without any seeming limitations.

    The only man ever born without original sin was Jesus. We can, looking at his attributes as a man part, and not the God part reasonably assume that is what we were meant to be before the fall, because he was perfect as was Adam.

    Perusing the Bible about the abilities of Jesus to know what others were thinking was the perfect human part, the knowing of what was in another mans heart was the God Part. The transfiguration was the perfect human part, the resurrection and forgiveness of sins was the God part.

  4. Also, I now understand what it means to be outside of time. The mind does not recognize time as in my WANDE, it knew everything instantly., I did not have to think which takes time. Actually I found it is thinking itself that is where the perception of time comes from.

    Does this make sense to anyone or did you have to be there?

  5. I think if Adam had just smacked the fruit out of her hand, given her a short but loving chewing out for listening to someone else besides God, maybe even a smack on her tush, God might have just forgiven them both.
    Very probable that God would have punished Eve somehow, but I think they could have still stayed in the Garden.

    While I agree with you about Adam taking a rock and smashing the snake, do you think it is possible that they did not even have the ability at that time to think thoughts of harming one of the animals?

    After all, they didn't have to deal with harmful creatures, and they might not have even been able to think of hurting one in return. Why would they have had to?

    Then there is the part where they hid from God after they partook. I suspect that if they had both been straight up honest and up front with God when He inquired into their activities, things might have gone a whole lot different for them.

  6. Susan,

    You are right. I doubt Adam would have any reason to conceive of violence. However ANY COURSE OF ACTION other than eating the fruit was by definition lawful. Which as you pointed out would mean that wife beating was on the table too. :)

  7. Does this make sense to anyone or did you have to be there?

    It makes total sense. Our minds were designed to encompass more and process more than they now do. Experts tell us that we only use a few percent of our brain's total capacity. If we once had perfect use of our minds there is no telling how much more we could process and experience.

    I suspect part of the answer lies in how God originally designed the marking of time. Man was given a list of celestial observations he could make and track. He was never told he had to be limited by them. If there is no death then it doesn't matter if you've made one trip around the sun, or 1,000.

  8. black3:27 PM

    Good stuff... thanks, Res.